[00:02] Rich Dale: Okay. So, I’m delighted to once again welcome Angela Fumpson to the Made to Grow podcast. Welcome, Angela.
[00:10] Angela Fumpson: Nice nice to be back.
[00:12] Rich Dale: So thanks for coming back. Some listeners may remember, our discussion from, from ep or series one. It’s hard to believe we’re now in series three, where we touched on some elements of what we’re gonna talk about today to do change management and and process mapping, and how to really coalesce around a clear vision for what, you know, what you want, in your business. But, before we do that, could you just, remind our listeners, about your background and and who you are?
[00:48] Angela Fumpson: Yeah. I’m there. Yeah. So I’ve got a background in mechanical engineering and chartered in quality management, process improvement. My passion at the moment is mentoring. So I love to mentor leaders and managers to get the best from their business and to allow it to deliver the way of life they need. But in the toolbox, obviously, is making sure that the structure and the process and the systems are right, which is, why we end up talking a lot about process mapping and how you make these changes and digitization.
[01:22] Angela Fumpson: So, yeah, excited to think about and talk about today how you implement that change.
[01:29] Rich Dale: Absolutely. And full full disclosure, Angela, you’re mentoring me, which has been great fun over the last couple of months. Yes. So it’s definitely been a a eye opening and challenging, but in a good way, kind of experience. So I highly recommend for anyone to to get in touch. But, but don’t use up all your time. I need to be selfish about that. But yeah. So moving on to the, the topic. So we’ve talked a lot about about how change management kind of makes or breaks projects.
[02:05] Rich Dale: And obviously from what you’ve just described and, you know, with Flowlens and the work that we do, you know, it’s not just about the software, it’s about, an effective change in the business. And sometimes we can go out of our way to not sell Flowlens to the company where we don’t see the readiness there. And it’s it’s an interesting, statistic that 70% of digital transformation projects typically fail. And, you know, that’s often due to a lack of leadership support.
[02:35] Angela Fumpson: Yeah.
[02:36] Rich Dale: But what are the what are the 30% doing right? So, so that’s partly what we want to to to dig in today. And this is actually gonna be a a new experience for for me because we’re gonna start talking, today about the the planning for change. And then we’re gonna, talk also about execution for change, but that’s gonna be episode three of Made to Grow. So, so we’ll be carrying that theme on, in the next episode.
[03:06] Angela Fumpson: Yeah. I think it’s very important to talk about the pre stage planning, because even if you’ve got the most amazing system, if everything’s not prepped and the people aren’t ready, then, you know, it could, it could go badly on the project and the software and reflect badly on the software when actually it’s the preparation and the people stuff that’s, much much needed. You know, there’s there’s a lot lot of inputting people first in the digital projects.
[03:34] Rich Dale: Well, picking that up, I mean, we we touch touched on it briefly there about, you know, the lack of leadership support is one of the reasons why why projects feel is is it worth just kind of elaborating on those those other reasons and and and the protecting the people aspect?
[03:51] Angela Fumpson: Yeah. We tact yeah. There’s an interest in fact, I think about the leadership, obviously, even with leadership buying, sometimes the leaders might not be involved in the project. Now unless they’re completely educated and they feel safe and confident with actual the change project, there’s a there’s a great saying that, I picked up in in the automotive industry, and they used to ask on the wall what shadow are you casting? So what whatever energy and everything you’ll bring into work, that impacts everybody else.
[04:23] Angela Fumpson: So if the leaders have got a little bit of concern, even though they’re not expressing it, the team running the project will feel that.
[04:31] Rich Dale: Mhmm.
[04:31] Angela Fumpson: So we need to make sure all the leaders are on board. They also understand they’re getting the feedback, the reports they need, and then everything will run a lot smoother. So even if the top leadership is not involved in the project, they still need to be educated. They still need the buy in, and they still need the knowledge to know that the project is running well because their influence affects everybody else in the team.
[04:58] Rich Dale: I think for even from a small team perspective, you know, sometimes we see leaders that are in the thick of it, which is great, and others that are sort of saying that’s somebody else’s baby. And I’m, you know, maybe a salesperson or an engineering, and the the the leader is is kind of very, focused on that. But, actually, they have KPIs that they’re working towards, but the new systems will be supporting, and processes that the new systems will be be supporting.
[05:27] Rich Dale: So even even if their interaction with the actual system isn’t day to day, their their activity will be will be driving some, output of that. And therefore, that in other words, there’s no excuse not to be part of it. And often that’s fair enough. You said it yourself with that confidence in technology isn’t always there. Yes. Yeah.
[05:53] Rich Dale: But it
[05:53] Angela Fumpson: it has build a good case. I agree. But but you have to give them the confidence and the dashboard and the feedback to know, that things are going well. And also they need to be very good at delegation. If they’re not involved, how is the team understanding the task? Do they understand the clear path? Do they know why they’re doing it? What is it? You know, what’s in it for the team? They need to understand all of that. So it’s it’s not just leadership, it’s how they delegate as well.
[06:22] Angela Fumpson: Do they are they if they’re dropping in and out of the project and micromanaging and and quite fearful, then the project is gonna be undermined.
[06:31] Rich Dale: What what would you say is the the correct way to to delegate a project like this?
[06:36] Angela Fumpson: I think you need, obviously, you need clear objectives, goals, and and everything needs to be very clearly mapped out. But it’s it’s having a clear leader and, you know, an owner for the project. Somebody responsible for reporting, for keeping the team together and reporting up to the leadership.
[06:55] Rich Dale: Yeah. I mean, we find that, almost a 100% of the time when when there isn’t that person, you’re you’re chasing cats or herding cats rather. You know, it’s just impossible to try and, make progress because there’s nobody who’s actually taking that final level of of responsibility for things getting done. Never mind then, you know, the the coaching and the interaction with team members who are, actually feeling the pain of the change, and and they have their own concerns. So it’s something
[07:29] Angela Fumpson: Quite often, that’s delegation because, the leadership team, they need to allocate that person time. So if that person is trying to take on the ownership and the management of your digitization project alongside their other role, and they’ve not been given space, they’re not gonna be able to do due diligence and actually take on responsibility for that project.
[07:54] Rich Dale: A %. Moving into the world then once once you’ve got that delegation in place, what about the rest of the team? How do you, you know, we’re not none of us likes change.
[08:08] Angela Fumpson: No. So I think there’s a lot of, you have to dispel the fear. I mean, you have to ask the obvious question in the beginning. Have you got a culture in the company that is very embracing of innovation change in this in this first place? Because if you’re trying to prepare your team and you’re throwing this project into a company that already has history with change or failed projects or the culture’s not, you know, conducive to embracing change, you’re already starting yourself with a project that’s gonna have resistance.
[08:46] Angela Fumpson: So how do you work on the team, and what’s happening before you even introduce technology?
[08:54] Rich Dale: Yeah. Because as you remarked earlier on, you know, employees who have experienced the past past failure are even more reluctant to get involved. So I suppose having that self reflection that, actually, this isn’t the type of thing that this business has done before, whether it’s a a technology change or anything else for that matter, how having the kind of presence of mind to to know where where the business is at.
[09:25] Rich Dale: Because, again, sometimes systems can be seen as a silver bullet, you know, and and it might be a positive thing because the businesses suddenly had an influx of orders or some new innovation has has, you know, come good, there’s new demand, but and that puts process or strain on the processes.
[09:45] Angela Fumpson: Yeah.
[09:45] Rich Dale: But the worst thing you can do then is to say, right, let’s slap a system on this because if you pick the wrong system or obviously not brought people along with you, it can actually make the bigger picture change that you really need to to make impossible.
[10:03] Angela Fumpson: But you have to listen to people first. You have to know your team. You have to know your individuals, and what their history is, and how they feel. Because there can be a lot of fear about, you know, role replacement even. You know, is my role gonna exist if suddenly all these systems come in?
[10:20] Angela Fumpson: So if you don’t listen to people and actually get them on board to understand why and what it’s gonna do and how it’s gonna help, and also that the the important thing is not just supporting at the start, supporting all the way through. Just a funny story because I, I got taught this by a little exercise. So, we got people to write their name or a sentence on a piece of paper and actually plot how long it takes them. So the more you write it, the quicker you get, and you get a nice graph.
[10:51] Angela Fumpson: And then we asked them to write this only every other letter. But if they got it wrong, it didn’t count in your team, so you had to write it. So, obviously, they were getting quicker. But on the chart, then there came a point where everybody slowed down. But that was because their brain was going, actually, am I getting this right? I need to check it and be a bit more thorough, because if I get it wrong, it’s a failure. So they started to think about the change in, and where they’re getting it right.
[11:20] Angela Fumpson: So the graph actually slowed down and then sped up again. And that’s the same because people start off with the support. But if you don’t keep the support going, at some point, they’re gonna start asking questions. This is more clunky. I’m not there yet. Is it worth it? Is it working? And that’s the time you need the support, not just at the beginning.
[11:39] Rich Dale: Mhmm. Mhmm. And that will come into our our next episode in a lot more detail. So, I mean, coming back to that sort of change friendly culture piece, you know, how do you prepare the employees for for change, you know, long before, you know, you’ve picked picked the software and are ready to roll it out?
[12:01] Angela Fumpson: I think you need us, a culture of trust in the start. I know we were chatting the other day about, you know, David Rock’s scarf model. It’s it’s, you know, are they being fairly treated? You know, is everything we do, is it affecting their status, their relatedness to people, All that kind of thing. So you need to start understanding how you operate in a in the business itself. You know, what is the culture? How do people feel?
[12:30] Angela Fumpson: And that’s that’s a deeper a deeper exercise, a deeper study, but you do need to have an element of trust in the business first.
[12:38] Rich Dale: Mhmm. And, I mean, everyone every business is different, but few businesses are are versed in in the kind of activities that it takes to even understand where you’re at. Yeah. And, you know, we obviously come at it from the point of view of changing your software and flu flu lens isn’t like you know, it’s not like changing from Mailchimp to, help, you know, constant contact or some Yeah. At this it’s a core business system.
[13:09] Rich Dale: So, people could have moved on and retired in the time it takes to to to sort of move from one generation of a system to another. So, again, I probably have this etched in my gravestone. You know, map your processes.
[13:27] Angela Fumpson: I was just gonna say the same thing.
[13:30] Rich Dale: Because it it it it brings the people together. If you if you if you do it right, and obviously the bigger the company, the harder it is to bring everyone into a room necessarily at the same time.
[13:40] Rich Dale: But it is a way to actually build empathy when where sometimes, particularly across departments, who are annoyed at each other for things that always go wrong, and there’s no, cure for that, but actually whenever they both sit back and look at what one is doing to the other and realize we could both be saving ourselves some some time here, that’s a really positive exercise.
[14:04] Angela Fumpson: It’s it’s coming to a consensus, isn’t it, of opinion? Bit like Hoshien Cannery as well, you know. You’re agreeing what everybody needs and how best you can support each other. And and I I don’t think people do that enough. They don’t sit down and go, okay. You know, the next, you know, it’s back to the nineties now, you know, internal customers. The next person in my process is, you know, Fred in this department. And what is it he needs to receive from me in terms of information and everything else?
[14:35] Angela Fumpson: And what format is the best way. And people start talking to one in one another and understand what each other does and what they need from each other, and they treat each other a bit more fairly.
[14:46] Rich Dale: Mhmm.
[14:46] Angela Fumpson: So the internal customer concept for me has never gone away. And when you start mapping processes, you start to really understand what each other needs, and then you start to come in with templates and consistency. So so people receive the information in the same way, in the same format, at the same time, and we start to get some standardization so that everybody can understand it.
[15:11] Rich Dale: Yeah. Yeah. %. I mean, some some of the most successful projects that Fluentence has delivered in in recent times have all started with that process map. And in some cases, the the customer has arrived, you know, at their inquiry with with us, and they’ve done all of that. You know, they’ve got a clear idea of it. They’ve got that buy in from the team. In other cases, we’ve we do that for them.
[15:37] Rich Dale: You know, we can talk to the the people, get those conversations going, and then help understand, you know, where those blockages are, where the the kind of misunderstandings are. And it’s a it’s a fun part of the the job, actually, because then those people who are obviously maybe naturally suspicious of of a software vendor who wants to sell them software, can actually see that we’re look we’re looking for the right solution, for this company, and sometimes we’ll walk away, as I said earlier.
[16:13] Rich Dale: But it’ll help us, overcome the their challenges quicker because we get that in the understanding of how the businesses is operating.
[16:23] Angela Fumpson: But it’s but you take a deep, you know, it it’s it’s understanding that need of the company, but the same thing is is with people, with the team. So if you can get those forums together with your teams as to it’s a bit like objection handling in sales. You know, what is it? What is their objection to have in this system put it? Understand it, listen to that, to their views.
[16:45] Angela Fumpson: And if you can get that kind of forum going in, not just with the customer, but with the teams, then everyone will be on board because you’ve got that two way communication. You’re listening really well to them as well as, you know, educating them on what’s happening.
[17:00] Rich Dale: Mhmm. Mhmm. On that point, you know, as particularly as the organization gets gets larger, like, how do you overcome the the sort of lack of understanding, as the the needs and the aspirations of the business get translated down to each level and, you know, and that that sort of skill and and experience at at the cool face at the at the Gamba is that the I mean, colleagues like to say, you know, how does that travel back up?
[17:34] Angela Fumpson: I think I think you’ve said the right words. It is about translation down to every level. So for me, it’s not just about the project plan. There needs to be a communications plan. And in any organization, there needs to be an order to that because and and it there needs to be a timing to it because whoever isn’t in the know, they will make up their own story. That’s, you know, that’s just human nature.
[18:00] Angela Fumpson: So it is about making sure that you’ve got the right timing and the right communication plan down the tiers, and it’s in, a language that actually, means something to their role. You will not have the same, explanation for the board, for the managers, for the supervisor as you will for people at the cold face. They need to understand what is it doing for me, and my team. What do I need to know?
[18:28] Rich Dale: Exactly. I mean, with with some of the work we’re doing on on FluLens, too with the shop floor app, you you could it could be regarded with suspicion that this thing is, you know, I’m supposed to tell it when I’ve started something, and, but actually, the the idea is, firstly, to empower the the person at the shop floor level. What do I do next? How do I, you know, make the most of my day and feel like I’ve made a an impact today? And I can see what what’s on my work to list.
[19:02] Rich Dale: I can see, what I can start. And, actually, if if that ties properly into KPIs, if the business is driving towards a certain level of profitability, well, the time that I’ve tracked that has gone into that particular, build up particular job actually means something towards the overall goal of operating more profitably and then more sustainably.
[19:27] Rich Dale: So
[19:27] Angela Fumpson: I mean, the only way that has an impact is obviously if you then put in something like profit share with the, employees.
[19:34] Rich Dale: Mhmm. And that’s a a topic for another another podcast. But I think, you know, it’s the kind of goal that companies are are aspiring to, you know, with with excellence is to be able to to have a a playing field or or a balanced scorecard that allows you to to feel like you know that you’re making a profit and and people are making a an impact on that. Yeah.
[20:03] Rich Dale: So we, when we kind of assume, alright, like, maybe I’m a tech tech guy, so we sort of assume that everyone has a phone in their pocket, and they’re used to technology these days. But, you know, people still you know, some people are still wary of of technology and, you know, the digital change you well, you touched on one of the big aspects of what, you know, where is is this machine gonna take over my job? But, you know, what what, methods are there there to overcome those kind of psychological barriers to change?
[20:39] Angela Fumpson: I think, I mean, you can always do company, like internal training, like awareness, webinar, bits and pieces that you could do workshops within the organization. But I think it’s, you know, the most important thing is the visibility of the project. You know, storytelling is a powerful thing. You know, where has the company come from? What is it gonna do to help it take to the next level? What’s their part in it? Help them feel safe.
[21:07] Angela Fumpson: You know, there will be a lot of speculation about AI, but it’s about what the company is doing at the moment. But if you wanted general sort of, you know, training on on what it is and how it works, then you can you can have, you know, workshops internally. But I think the story and the trust and the reasoning behind it and the listening and the forums you do with your teams, to build the trust is important. That’s probably the my best tip.
[21:35] Rich Dale: Yeah. Funny. When you mentioned stories, it reminds me of a a senior sales rep in a company who had been used to kinda running his own, CRM effectively in a spreadsheet for the previous ten years and deeply suspicious of putting the information in into flu lens, and probably one of the last people to engage with the project, which is isn’t unusual because we tend to focus on the ops side first anyway. But when it came to this process of of building the trust of the you know, this isn’t gonna steal your pipeline.
[22:13] Rich Dale: Other people aren’t going to to steal your your leads. And it actually turned into a real positive because he he didn’t even he didn’t know what he didn’t know. He didn’t know what was possible. And apart from the pure time saving of, you know, of updating leads, it was much quicker. You could do it on his phone.
[22:34] Rich Dale: He didn’t have to get his laptop out, but all the other intelligence that that it gave him to do with what what had been sold previously and, even service tickets, that kind of thing, was a real eye eye opener for him. So, and sometimes you, you know, these things take time to be able to to to manifest. But, you know, it it they you can teach an old dog new tricks, I suppose.
[23:00] Angela Fumpson: But you got over the initial, you know, is it safe? Is it secure? That’s obviously one of the most important things. If people feel safe, they feel secure, and then they have to feel confident that they can do it. And then that’s that’s down to very clever training because we can’t overwhelm them. Like you say, there’s so many possibilities, but people need to sort of be onboarded very slowly.
[23:24] Angela Fumpson: And then it’s when you’re in a system because you’ve got no idea what how powerful it is, then you can start playing, then you see the possibilities, then you can start working with it. But it’s important to start with the basics. Because if you overwhelm people at the start, they’re just gonna say, well, I can’t do this. I’m I’m, you know, and it depends how you train as well.
[23:48] Angela Fumpson: I had an instance where I put a new booking system in, and it was the old case of, well well, I’ve got a a receptionist that’s been with me forever. She’s not really gonna embrace new technology, but I’ve got this, you know, young receptionist. She’ll be fine. She’ll get she’s used to technology. But actually, I just sat with the receptionist for the morning, and it was just the risk and the thought and the fear of getting it wrong that was stopping her progressing. So she needed a different type of training.
[24:20] Angela Fumpson: She needed just somebody to sat in the sit in the background while she’s learning and while she’s doing just in case
[24:29] Rich Dale: Mhmm.
[24:29] Angela Fumpson: To know that she wasn’t doing it wrong. So so there are very, very different delegation styles. They’re very different training styles, and we just need to know and actually, she was the best on the system. Her attention to detail was great, but she just needed to get over the fear of getting things wrong and what would happen if I get them wrong.
[24:50] Rich Dale: Yeah. We kind of underestimate that it’s it’s it’s not just about read the manual. You know? Underestimate the the ways in which people learn and those kind of well, we we mentioned it earlier, the kind of psychological barriers are very hard to decipher. So making assumptions is is, is is costly.
[25:17] Angela Fumpson: Yeah. And people don’t come to work to make mistakes. They come to work to make a difference, not just to get a paycheck. So you don’t know how, making a mistake impacts people. And and different people work differently, and they, you know, and they might have had a very different history with a different different company with a different culture. So, we have to bear in mind, you know, how they’re going to need training, how they’re gonna need hand holding in the beginning.
[25:43] Rich Dale: Mhmm. Mhmm. So, Angela, we’ve covered quite a few things there, and it probably feels like we’re moving towards the execution phase. But, for for now, would you kind of summarize, you know, I I don’t always put it in the in the negative and you what these are the things you must do to avoid failure. But, you know, what what are what are the the kind of key positive, takeaways from this that that, businesses can can seize to make make the most of the technology opportunities that are there and actually empower their staff?
[26:24] Angela Fumpson: I think I think, so if we start with what we’ve discussed first, so I think, you know, prepare people for change because, you know, change isn’t easy. So build the trust up first, then build your narrative, build your story. But, you know, what is the company story? Where are we going with this? Why do we need it? Hand hold through change, make sure the support is continuous, and the conversation is two way to support them. Training is not a one size fits all.
[26:55] Angela Fumpson: Just make sure that we we look at that and just and and just celebrate. You know? Just keep people involved. Keep them people in the know, and celebrate. Because, you know, it change can be very easy. I know there’s a lot out there that’s very scary about change. It can be easy as long as you go on it together.
[27:17] Rich Dale: I like it. Well, I I think that’s a good a good moment to take a pause. So what what will happen now is there’ll be another monologue, although I just realized I forgot to I’ll put your web address in the monologue, is that okay?
[27:36] Angela Fumpson: Yeah.
[27:37] Rich Dale: Yep. And then that will be episode one over,
[27:42] Angela Fumpson: Mhmm.
[27:44] Rich Dale: And then we’ll come back into the next, piece for episode two. So actually, I think what I’ll do, I’ll I’ll not I’m just taking note of the time here. So what I’ll do is say, well, thanks, Angela. I think that’s now is a good time to take a pause, and we’ll just cut in after what you just said. Mhmm. And, thank you. Thank you. And then, you know, if if listeners would like to learn more about you, how do they get in touch?
[28:17] Rich Dale: And then if you, say your web web address in LinkedIn, and then we’ll, I’ll say thanks, and then we’ll pick this up in the next episode or words to that effect. Yeah. No problem. And then that will be a a segue. Just to I’m just thinking of our process and our my guys will be expecting that. So where where they put your link your LinkedIn screenshot and things like that. So, so yeah. So when you’re ready so, Anja, that, summarizes it neatly, and I think it’s it’s a good time to to pause.
[28:57] Rich Dale: And thank you so much for for your time today and what we’ve discussed so far. If in the meantime, before we we release episode two, how can our listeners get in touch with you?
[29:12] Angela Fumpson: I’m happy to link up link up on LinkedIn. Yeah. Just share my profile. Always happy to have a conversation or there’s a my company website is www.white-tiger.co.uk. So, yeah. Have a little look on there if people want to know more about me. But, yeah. Reach out on LinkedIn.
[29:34] Rich Dale: Brilliant. Thank you, Angela. Well, till next time.
